Question: Thank you so much for talking to us today. Can you please introduce yourself to our viewers?
Mrs. Zakzaky: Okay. My name is Zeenah Ibrahim. I am one of the followers and students of Sheikh Zakzaky.
Question: Well, can you tell me more about yourself? Who are you? Tell me about yourself.
Mrs. Zakzaky: And an activist in the Islamic movement in Nigeria.
Question: And you’re also a journalist, right?
Mrs. Zakzaky: No, I’m not a journalist. You know, she told me, you know you were speaking and said journalist, I said no. Because a journalist is somebody who works like what you people are doing, but me, what I do is just, you know, teaching people, preaching, going to different towns, villages, organizing conferences, and all these. You know I don’t think that is journalism.
Question: Yeah, it’s way above that.
Mrs. Zakzaky: Yes.
Question: Well, tell us about how you became familiar with Islam, and Shia Islam in particular.
Mrs. Zakzaky: You know my parents [were Muslims], I was born in a Muslim home. My parents, my grandparents, and I don’t know how far [were Muslims]. They are Muslims. So, I was born in a traditionally Muslim family. They practiced Islam traditionally, and what was understood about Islam in those days was praying, going to Hajj, paying zakat, anything like that, and that’s why I call it traditional not revolutionary. Because there was nothing like revolution at that time.
So, it was when we went to the secondary school, it was a boarding school. There [in Nigeria], after the primary school, there is secondary school, my secondary school was a boarding school. So, it was, and through the Muslim Students Society, there is Muslim Society from secondary school to tertiary to university level. So, when you are in the school, in the second school you are automatically a member of Muslim Students Society. So, we used to have our activities during the weekends.
So, it was during that time when students from the university used to come to us during the weekend to give us lectures about Islam. That was when we, specially from ABU [Ahmadu Bello University], where the Sheikh [Zakzaky] is a student there [at the time], It was then that we started understanding that Islam is more than what we are traditionally told at home. It [Islam] means the whole life you know. It has to do with everything you do in your life. It’s not just praying and fasting, or when you have money go to Hajj, and all these. Because it was then that they started speaking to us about the necessity for Islam to be the one to govern our lives, for the Quran to govern our lives. That was for the first time that we started hearing that. And they spoke about Islamic governance, Islamic economy, Islamic this, Islamic that, and it was very impressive to us. Because we didn’t know that.
Question: This was the Sheikh [Zakzaky] speaking about these?
Mrs. Zakzaky: Yes, Sheikh [Zakzaky] and other students in the university who used to come, and give us lectures in the secondary school. It was then. And the apart from that during the holidays we have programs like I.V.C. They call it I.V.C, Islamic Vacation Courses, which usually takes place both in the northern part of Nigeria, and also in the southern part of Nigeria. And it is all organized by the Muslim Students Society. During vacations we have classes on Islamic subjects, different subjects, and then we have lectures on things to do with ideology, things that shape our ideology, and make us understand that Islam concerns the whole of our life, not just rituals and so on. So, that helped. It was then that I started, and I became active in the Muslim Students Society.
And of course, during the late years of my secondary school, because there are schools of Muslim Students Society, I was appointed as the organizer of the Muslim Student Society in the secondary school where I [went to] school, and there we are the ones who organize things, activities for our organization. And meanwhile, we attend this kind of programs which the schools of the MSS in the universities, people like Sheikh [Zakzaky] and other brothers organized. So, that made us realize that Islam has to do with the whole of our life, and it made us want Islam to govern our life.
Question: So, tell me when did you first meet the Sheikh [Zakzaky]?
Mrs. Zakzaky: I know Sheikh since 1977, because they are in the university and the ones organizing, but he does not know me [at the time], I’m amongst the audience, and I used to attend I.V.C and there, the big brothers like Sheikh, they are the ones who are coordinating everything. I finished my secondary school in 1979, and it was then when I attended a conference at Lagos, an international conference. That was when the Sheikh first saw me. But before I knew him as one of the big brothers who are organizing things but he did not know me.
Question: What year did you marry?
Mrs. Zakzaky: But when he saw me in 1979 it did not mean that there was anything, any relationship between us. Just like a student. I was active, he is also active, and that’s all. There was nothing about marriage between us. So, our marriage is in 1984, to answer you, in 1984. But before that it was just purely a student-teacher relationship, not the relationship of marriage.
Question: Right, so let’s talk about Imam Khomeini, and how you became familiar with Imam Khomeini.
Mrs. Zakzaky: We first started hearing about the Imam in the late 1977, when I was in secondary school, or early in the 1978. In our school there is library, and when we have breaks, they usually bring us newspapers and so on. So, I go to the library and I read. Because it is a boarding school and they don’t allow us to go out. Especially it is a Bi-school, both boys and girls. The boys are allowed to go [out] on Fridays to Friday prayer, but we women we don’t go out at all. We’re always in the school so I go to the library, I read [news] papers and then I started seeing things about the [Islamic] Revolution. So, we became interested.
Because before this time, in our meetings and our conferences, we are being told that it is necessary for us to have an Islamic system to govern our life, but the method to do it at that time used to be a [matter of] debate. Some people used to say the best thing is for us to get deep in Western education, and to have many degrees, and then penetrate into strategic positions in the system. And then, when we are holding very strategic positions then we declare that this is an Islamic country. Because the majority of people in Nigeria are Muslims. And anyway, we have a history of revolution in Nigeria during the time of Sheikh Usman Dan Fodio. So, this made the people in Nigeria understand the Revolution in Iran, because it happened before [in Nigeria]. At least we had it from our parents, and every time when you say Sheikh Usman Dan Fodio, revolution, everybody know that you are talking about [a similar revolution]. So, we saw that this is something similar to that of Sheikh Dan Fodio coming up in Iran.
So, we are supporting the Revolution. Even though at that time we had some of our students, colleagues who are not Muslims. So, we are divided in Muslims and Christians. So, they used to argue that they don’t want the Revolution, they are not supporting Imam, and they are not supporting the Revolution [at that time], but we used to tell them how good the Revolution is, and so on and so forth. So, right from the beginning, alhamdulillah, we loved the Imam [Khomeini], and we supported the Revolution. Because it was something that we were hoping for, and then we see it might realize in Iran.
Question: When was the first time you came to Iran?
Mrs. Zakzaky: It was in 1982. Early 1982.
Question: Tell me about that.
Mrs. Zakzaky: Yes. You know after the victory of the Revolution, that was in 1979, at that time I was still in secondary school, but at the end of that year I graduated from secondary school, and then I got admission into a, what we call tertiary institution. It’s not university but above secondary. Maybe like high school, I don’t know. Anyway, it’s not like high school. It’s just tertiary. After secondary school then you go to this tertiary, and then university.
Question: Is it like college?
Mrs. Zakzaky: Yes, something like that. After that I gained admission to a tertiary institution called “Kasts” in a town called Katsina. So, it was during that time, The Sheikh got an invitation, I think it was 1980, after the Revolution in February, in February 1980 [Sheikh] was invited here [Katsina]. Already by that time, we’re having our activities, we are aspiring for what happened in Iran, and we used to have what we call, “E.E.D”. You know I was telling you about the I.V.C [Islamic Vacation Courses]. During the I.V.C, the Sheikh would notice some brothers and sisters who are very committed. Because he takes a class that we call, “Qaleed class” at that time. It is called Qaleed class, that is where all the people in higher institutions and higher universities, there is a class for them. There are classes for secondary school levels, and then there is class for Qaleed. Qaleed is for university and tertiary institutions, and Shiekh was the one taking [teaching in] that class.
So, in that class he would notice most of the things we do are ideological things, things to do with discussions [like] how Islam has to be the system that we are going to follow, and what methods are we going to use to do it. We used to read books like the books of Sayyid Qutb, you know Sayyid Qutb. We used to read books like his Milestones, a Sayyid Qutb’s book. And then there are some books of Abul A'la Maududi, and revolutionary things like that. So, at that time, like I was telling you, there were ideas about how can the revolution be brought here. Should we penetrate into the system, and then finally declare it Islamic, or it has to be a revolutionary approach. By the time we started reading Milestones, then the ideas started changing that actually what is necessary is for us to be separate from the system, which is a system against the system of God. To be a separate entity, and then to struggle against our system. Otherwise, if we enter the system, we would become neutralized.
If you have read Milestones, this is what he [Sayyid Qutb] is trying to show, that when the Prophet (pbuh) came, that was not the method he followed; not going and joining Abu Jahl, Abu …, all those Abus. He didn’t go to join them. What he did was that he stayed [separate], and said La ilaha illa Allah [There is no God but Allah]. So that is what Sayyid Qutb is trying to explain throughout the Milestones. So, that had a great effect on us, and it was the Sheikh who used to explain it to us. Somebody would read it, and then we would discuss it. We read many books and [had many] discussions. So, by the time that the Revolution of Iran became successful, people were telling us no it is not possible, because nowadays it is very far away from the time of the Prophet (pbuh). This is a new era, now there is aeroplane, there is this, there is that, it’s not the time of Camels, and all of these. So, we cannot bring back the Islamic system.
So, while this argument was going on, the Islamic Revolution became successful. So, it became an encouragement for us that Alhamdulillah what some people are saying is not important, now that it has happened in Iran. So, that became a point of reference to us. The Sheikh came to Iran, and that was 1980, to attend the first anniversary of the Islamic Revolution. So, when he came back, I wish everyone that attend such programs, would do what the Sheikh has done, because when he came back, he went to almost all universities, all higher institutions, he was delivering lectures, telling people what he saw in Iran, showing …, I forgot, what is it called? Yes! Slideshows! He came with some slideshows; he showed them even to people who were not Muslims, they were very impressed by the Revolution. Because the fact that it was against oppression, even though they are not Muslims [they were impressed].
Like for instance, the communists. At that time in the university, we have these communist ideas. It’s everybody. It feels like it was the norm of the day. If you wanted to show that you are progressive, and you are modern then you became a communist. So, it was what was reigning at that time. Communism against Capitalism, and on the other hand, there is the Islamic Movement; People who think that Islam should be the system that we are going to follow. But even then, those communists, they were impressed by the Imam [Khomeini], and were impressed by the Islamic Revolution, because of what they had seen had happened. So, when the Sheikh came, those lectures that he went to deliver in many places, many people attended, and it really had a great impact on a lot of people. And it was then when [we had] the first E.E.D. Like I said, we have MSS’ [Muslim Students Society] Islamic Vacations Courses, and we also had close meetings.
When we were having that Qaleed class, the Sheikh would only invite [specific] people, he would notice who are responding, who are the people that are really active among brothers and sisters. After the I.V.C, after everyone had departed, there was a special meeting about five or six days. So, in those special training meetings, he read Tafsir of the Quran for us, hadith of the Prophet (pbuh), and these ideological books like Milestones and so on. And then we discussed it, and then we would see how we are going to implement all these things. That is how the movement started. It was part of MSS [Muslim Students Society], but a separate thing. But at that time, everybody looked at us as Muslim Students Society. So, it was after his coming back from Iran, that kind of secluded meetings that we had, it was there. And in 1979 Sheikh was graduated from university.
Okay, what I forgot to say is that whenever we had these secluded meetings, it usually had impact on us, at least for more than a month after we left the meetings. Because after we left the place, we would just see everything that is happening around us as terrible. I don’t know what can I say, it had a great impact on us. Just five or six days, some tafsir, hadith of the prophet (pbuh), and of course practically we would do things like tahajjud, zikr, we do zikr together and then we do tahajjud together, like we wake up at 2 o’clock until Subh prayer, we were making tahajjud and so on. So, it had a great impact on us, you know.
So, when you go out, you just feel everything as terrible, every terrible thing that was happening in the Jahiliyah society where we lived. You would feel the effect even after a month after the program. So, we complained to Sheikh that after some time, we start melting into the society, and then we start forgetting about the kind of training we had in that seclusion. Then for this reason, we suggested that, “why don’t we have it every month?” Every month we can have such meetings, instead of it being just once in three months. It used to be during the vacations.
That happened in 1980, April 1980. If you go through the history of the Islamic Movement, you see that there is a Funtua declaration. It was during that time, at the I.V.C of 1980, in Funtua, a town called Funtua, that’s why we call it the Funtua declaration, that was after Shiekh had returned from Iran, he made a very moving speech. And then he based it on the hadith of the Prophet (pbuh), which was reported by Imam Ali (pbuh) which says, I will say it in short, “Anyone that sees an oppressive government, oppressing the servants of Allah, and trying to abrogate the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh), and he does not stand up to oppose the oppression, either with the mouth, or with the hand then on the day of judgement Allah would take him to the about of that oppressor and there will be punished in the same punishment.”
After reading this hadith to us, he related it to the situation that we are in that look at us now. At that time the military government had just gone, and then the so called, “democratic government” had just come in. That was the president that was called “Shagari”. So, he [Sheikh Zakzaky] was saying that in our own case, it is not that only we have seen an oppressive government fighting against Islam and not implementing Islam. No! We are the ones who have even elected them to go and do which is against the law of Allah. So, we are as guilty as they are.
In my book I have recalled the Funtua declaration. That made a great impact on us. Because at the time the Sheikh was saying all these, at that time he was the vice president of the international MIS. He was to get up with the big brothers on the stage, but by the time he finished, they all, one by one, they ran away from the stage because they were afraid that something will happen. Even before the lecture finishes, we would be attacked so they all ran away. But we, ordinary people that were in the audience were very impressed by what he was saying because we knew he was saying the truth. We felt like our only salvation is to struggle to realize an Islamic system. Otherwise, if we go back to Allah we have no excuse that we could give back to Allah.
Question: We were talking about the first time that you had come to Iran, and I wanted to know, did you meet Imam Khomeini?
Mrs. Zakzaky: Yes, but in the audience. The first time I came was 1982. You know I’m trying to go back to what has happened, but anyway, when I came in 1982, during 22 Bahman celebration [anniversary of Islamic Revolution in Iran], some sisters who came to Nigeria from Iran, the most prominent among them is the wife of martyr Rajaei, they were invited by some Islamic groups, but when they came, they were somehow abandoned by those people, and then it was us, at that time our movement was just very young, it was us that embraced them and stayed with them to the end. Even at that time I was arrested, during the time that they came because while we were in the Hotel, where they stayed the security broke in. They arrested us and after some hours, they released us. They said, “what is your connection with these people?”
Question: Why did they arrest you?
Mrs. Zakzaky: Because they were afraid that Iran and the Revolution would come to Nigeria. That is why. And at that time many things had happened in the movement, and at that time even the Sheikh was in the prison. So they were afraid that, that Revolution would come to Nigeria. But after some hours they released us. But at the time, [when] the wife of president Rajaei [was in Nigeria], president Rajaei was already martyred. She was among those who came and a Mrs. Gorji, she was elderly at that time. And then the sister Bakhtiar, and some sisters like that, about five of them. They came with some brothers. After they came back to Iran, in late 1981 they [once again] came to Nigeria. In early 1982, by the time many things had happened in our university, we had problems, I was even expelled. I decided to come to [Iran]. Through a brother who was here before the Revolution, he was studying in Qom. In Hawza. He said that there are schools here that if you come here, you can continue your studies so I came here.
Question: So, you came to Iran, which year?
Mrs. Zakzaky: 1982, late January 1982. So, while we were here those sisters [that had come to Nigeria], invited us to 22 Bahman. It was during the time that visitors went and visited Imam, we were taken to visit the Imam [Khomeini]. That was the first time I saw the Imam.
Question: And what feeling did you have? How did you feel when you saw Imam Khomeini?
Mrs. Zakzaky: It is not explainable. I remember at the time that we were going to see the Imam, some people in the Van, they were distributing tissues. I said what for? They said some people, when they see the Imam, they cry. I said why should I cry? I won’t, I want to see him. So, I shouldn’t cry if I see him. But by the time the Imam came in, you know he was at Jamaran, there was light shining from his forehead. I didn’t know it and I started crying.
I was surprised when they said [take a tissue], I said why should I cry? Because I want to see him, so if I see him, I will be happy. But I just started crying. You know what surprised me more is that there was one American journalist, she was amongst [the audience], so I saw her crying too. So later I asked her why were you crying? She said I cannot explain it, and she is not a Muslim. She was overwhelmed just by seeing the Imam. She said I cannot explain. Then I told her that yes, I had the same thing coming upon me, I was also crying. I told her I hope that when you go back to America you tell the truth, not the propaganda that these people are saying about this great servant of Allah. She said I would do it, but I hope they publish it. She was an elderly lady, she was white, American journalist. That was what she said. She was not a Muslim but she was also overwhelmed.
If somebody tells me this is a prophet, the prophet coming back, this is the Prophet Muhamad (pbuh), I wouldn’t say it is not the Prophet (pbuh). I can’t explain the kind of feeling I had when I first saw the Imam.
Question: Tell us about the political social and cultural situation that you’ve already started to talk about it in Nigeria and how you began to preach Islam, revolutionary Islam because of course as you said in Nigeria the majority of the people are already Muslim but the revolutionary Islam.
Mrs. Zakzaky: You know it became new to them. everything became new to them. and actually, right from the beginning the Sheikh trained us. One of the trainings that Sheikh gave us is that whenever you hear anything you should also try to persist on. Not only persist on, we should hear, we should understand and be convinced then we should act upon what we have been told.
And you remember in Milestones that is what Sayid Qutb is emphasizing, that first generation of Muslims, what is the difference between them and later Muslims? Is that, the later Muslims, they read, they accumulate knowledge so that they can be called knowledgeable, but the first generation, their approach to the Quran was just like soldiers’ approach to today’s bulletin in the warfront.
Because they need to know what is in today’s bulletin; the kind of paper they distribute, because it will show them where are mines, which danger is on the road, which place is safe, and where the enemies are lying an ambush, and so on.
So, he emphasizes that now if we want to bring back Islam, we have to do the same thing. A kind of training that Sheikh gave us. That whenever we read, we should act upon it. For this reason, even tafsir of the Quran, he was doing it according to revelation.
You know first Iqra, you know, that was the first revelation, and then other Surahs came, and then, whenever we read something, for instance whenever we read about Iqra [Surah Al-Alaq], it encourage us that each of us must increase our knowledge, we should try to look for, apart from Western education that you are doing, we should bring fiqh books and books on different aspects of Islam, and we should get in different towns because in that time most of us were in Zaria But some are in other towns.
So, we should go to some Ulamas, who are teaching such things. We should go and increase our knowledge. And whenever we read something we should try to act upon it. And some of us, he [Sheikh Zakzaky] is the one that teaches us some of the aspects of the Islamic sciences that we read.
So that had impact on us. The fact that whenever we read something we have to act upon it. For instance, when we read about tahajjud, then we said we must start doing tahajjud. Then we read some hadith about tahajjud and how it should be implemented. The least that is expected for some body who wants to stand up to revive Islam is to do one third of the night [the night prayer].
You divide your night into three, and then one third of it is for doing tahajjud. So, this kind of training that Sheikh gave us, [for example] when we also read about “Qum fa’anthir” [Rise up and warn!] (Quran 74:2), when an ayah of Quran has instructed the Prophet (pbuh) that now you should start calling, then he also encouraged us that we should call [too].
I remember I used to complain to him that we do not have knowledge and we don’t know how to call people. Because sometimes when we go to preach to people they would be asking us what we did not know. Then he said if they asked you what you do not know you say I don’t know. Because I don’t know is knowledge, you don’t tell them what you do not know but what you know.
So, he emphasized the way he tried to call people to revolutionary Islam is emphasizing to people to know the meaning of the “la ilaha illAllah, Muhammad rasulAllah” [Shahada]. Because he used to explain to us that al-nabi Nuh [prophet Noah], he called people for 950 years, that is what Allah said in the Quran. He was calling people to worship Allah and rebel against any authority which is not that of Allah. They did not accept and he did not add anything to what he was calling.
So, he used to tell us that we must stick to this; that the people should understand what is the meaning of the “la ilaha illAllah” [Shahada] . So, this is the method that the Sheikh [taught us], and then, he always told the people when he was preaching, he told them that we know we are Muslims. We are not saying that we are bringing a new religion to you, we are not saying that you are not Muslims, you are Muslims, but come and let us practice Islam, just like Allah has said we should pray, at the same time we should do jihad, so we cannot just pray and leave jihad beside. And just as Allah said you should pray we should implement His laws. So, it is in this way, you know, even up to now, that is a kind of call that is being made.
Question: You married the Sheikh you had children you were still an activist and a preacher, tell me how did you do it all? How would you balance this out, being a wife of the Sheikh, being a mother of the children and still being an activist and preaching the Deen. How did you do it? How did you balance this out?
Mrs. Zakzaky: You know right from the beginning, you know the Sheikh has encouraged us, we sisters, because in the society that we are in,they don’t recognize that women should have any role in Islam. You know, women go to the market, they go to ceremonies, and all these sorts of things, but when it comes to Islam, they feel it is a new thing.
Actually, it was the Sheikh who introduced participation of the women in our society. Now it has become well-known. Even people who are not in the movement, who are not even supporters of the movement, it has become known in the society that they know that women have a role to play in Islam. But before then I swear that I was brough up just to feel that women have nothing to do with Islam. In fact, I remember from the beginning, one of the accusations that they were giving to Sheikh was that yes, we heard you are calling that we should come back to Islam, you are saying that we should come back to the Islam just Sheikh Usman Fodio came to stablish Islam. But, why are you doing it with women? So, they used to accuse us.
When we had meetings, we used to have it in mosque, they said why you are having meetings with women? Women even didn’t go to the mosques at that time. They didn’t go to the mosque. Even famous mosques were a place just for men. No place for women in the mosque. It is the sheikh who, through his encouragement and showing that women are half of the population, and there is no way you can build a society with just half the populations. It has to be hand in hand. Work has to be hand in hand. So, this encouragement is what laid the foundation for us that we became active.
You know, right from the beginning he was showing us that we are very important, and our participation is important, and what is more important in our life is struggle. Not even our marriage or anything. The struggle is main important [thing]. Even if we are going to get married it has to be in that line, the line of struggle. If we are going to live our lives it has to be in the line of struggle. So, this understanding that makes, you know, for instance, I don’t see it has anything extraordinary or anything so [special], because I’m an activist, and then I’m a mother, and a wife. I don’t see it extraordinary.
Question: Because here in Iran, this is an issue that people are trying to figure out because we have women who are very active on one hand, and then of course balancing their home life, family life and their husband and kids, and are trying to see how to balance it out. That was why I wanted to learn from your experience of how you were able to do it?
Mrs. Zakzaky: Another thing is that, for instance, my personal experience is that the Sheikh is not saying what he is not practicing it. For instance, in the house, he does not believe that it’s the women’s job to do the house chores or all these things. Even right from the beginning of our life, we used to do things together. He cooks, I cook, he takes care of the children, I take care of the children. Even some of the children are even closer to him than me. Because, they only come to me when they need breast milk, but for feeding, changing napkins and taking bath, everything he does. Just like I do he does it.
But only when he is not around [he wouldn’t do it], and most of the time in our early life, he is in the prison. But when he is together with us, he’s always doing everything. In fact, sometimes the children prefer that he should do things for them than myself. Because the children, I gave birth to them very, very close. In fact, one of those two brothers that were martyred, when he was six month [old], I was already pregnant of the other one.
Question: How many children did you have all together?
Mrs. Zakzaky: Nine, yes, they were nine.
Question: And then how many have been murdered?
Mrs. Zakzaky: Six.
Question: So, six of them have been murdered and three are left.
Mrs. Zakzaky: Yes. Yes.
Question: That is a very difficult situation for any mother to imagine being in, and yet you had handled it so well. So, tell me what is the key to that? You can speak so easily and talk about losing six kids, actually not losing but six children being murdered, what is the key to you being able to speak that way?
Mrs. Zakzaky: I just think it is Allah’s help. You know, just Allah’s help. Allah is great because in the first place Allah even before he tests us, he put revelations on us, he tells us what are the answers to them. You know. So, it is Allah’s help because I was so attached to my children and I can not imagine losing anyone of them. you know. Even though, I pray I want my children to be Shuhada, but I had never tried to imagine how I’m going to feel. It is Allah’s help, you know, some people say that I am brave or anything but I don’t think that I am brave, because Allah is great when he put tribulations on you if you accept it nicely, then he will help you to cope with it, it is just Allah’s help you know. I don’t think I can attribute it to anything.
-For instance, the Sheikh. He was also very attached to children very attached to them because even at night when he wakes up to pray at night, because the boys were already grown up so they had their sessions, so even at night he would go to see what they are doing what condition they are in. I had to put hijab before I had to go to that area because those boys have already been [grown up]. So, Sheikh was so attached to them that even at night he goes there.
In fact, at that time, I was thinking how he is going to feel and how he is going to cope without them. And Alhamdulillah, when the children grew up, right from that time, they had been part of the activities, so they were just part of everything that we were doing, they were also activists, and they helped their father a lot. In a lot of things. Even if you go through the movement, you will find that Abulfadl al-Abbas [a social media campaign], it was Ahmad that introduce it together with his siblings, you know, and there is this … There is Intizar [another campaign] that they were the ones who introduced it and now there are, I don’t know thousands of them and so the children were very active and they helped the Sheikh a lot, you know, in his activities. So, I used to think how he’s going to feel about [his children’s martyrdom] but Alhamdulillah, he was also able to cope. So, our only thank is to Allah.
I can’t say that [my braveness] this is the reason because of the attachment I had to them, and because I gave birth to them as I told you very, very close so most of the time I’m not well. Because you know how pregnancy is. So, that is why most of the time you will find out that while I’m pregnant, he will be the one to take care of the child that I’m taking care of. Unless it was necessary for me to take care of them. That’s why he helped as long as he was around. But that made the children to be so attached to him. But, after this happened [the martyrdom of her children], it was Allah’s help. Good people were praying for us and Allah gave us patience and so I think it all had effect. Alhamdullillah.
Question: And you went through so many struggles so many difficulties in general that you have faced in Nigeria. What has been the key to you to continue on preaching about Islam, not to get discouraged, not to get overwhelmed?
Mrs. Zakzaky: Actually, Alhamdulillah, we had encouragement from the Sheikh. You know, he was always telling us that this is how the path of Allah is and we have no solution except being patient and continue. Our success is being resistant. Even when they are killing us, they know that we have not surrendered to them. For us to be successful we have to be resistant to the end. So, we know that this is a path of Allah, and of course we had encouragements from the Sheikh too; that this is a path of Allah and we should expect. And even before it happened, we knew it is going to happen although we didn’t know the extent, the greatness of it will be like that.
For instance, like I told you I used to pray that, I prayed for Shahadah [martyrdom] even up to now, even I pray that my children part of them should be shuhada, but I never imagined three of them in one day will become shuhada, and after that I thought after three, all of them were talking of shahada, even the smallest one, he was fourteen when he was killed, they were always talking of shahada. Then I told them you should wait. One time, it was Heydar, he was telling me that, after shahada of Ahmad, Hamid and Mahmud, he said that Umma (mother), I think you do not like us, I said why? He said, because you’re always talking that you want to become shahid, I said yes because already this Ahmad and Hamid and Mahmud have gone and I’m afraid because you people are saying that you will become shuhada. I’m afraid that you go before me. So, I want to go before you. It is not because I do not like you. So I was not expecting that they all three go at the same time, and before my eyes, you know before my very eyes, that is what happened but Allah in his mercy, was the one who helped us. Just imagine, it happened at the time that Ahmad, Mahmud and Hamid were killed. I was thinking if I had been there, if I had known where they [Nigerian security forces] took them, would I have followed them? Even if I would’ve been killed too?
I was asking where have they been taking them? Mahmud was killed on the spot, he was shot on the street, he was shot under his needle, the doctor said it was the place that the blood cannot be stopped, so he bled to death, even they stopped the ambulance from going to the hospital, even before I reached him, he’s already become shahid. But Ahmad and Hamid they were taking them to the army barracks. They were tortured to death. So, at the time they were torturing them I didn’t know. I was asking people were have they taken Ahmed and Hamid, and Ali Haydar the second to the last one. They were telling me they don’t know which barracks they have been taken to a …?
I was asking them where have they taken Ahmed and Hamid, because at that time I was thinking I want to go to the police even if they were going to kill me. Whatever is happening to them should also happen to me. We didn’t know where they have taken them until when they had already killed Ahmad and then Hamid. We were thinking that Hamid was there. We didn’t hear anything until they killed all of them. So, at that time I was thinking if I was there I would have tried what I can but in the case of Hammad, Ali and Homeyd, it was in my front, for instance, when they shot us, and spread the bullets on us then I heard one the children one of the girls that we were together, she was saying, “they have killed Hammad, and Homeyd, when I looked I saw the neck of Hammad was like this (showing) a little bit in front of me and then Homeyd was in front of him. Hammad was like this and his neck just like [when you are] slaughtering an animal, half of his neck was cut, and then Homeyd was in front of him, he was also like this, later I know that it was his brain that blown out.
Ali was still there nothing happened to him, then he was asking, umma, he called respectfully his elder brother, he said they have killed yaya Hammad and then Homeyd, and they’ve shot you. Please allow me to go out they should shoot me too. So, the Sheikh kept quiet. He looked at us persisting, “permit me to go out, umma permit me to go out, so they can kill me too.” So, I kept quiet, and I saw Sheikh kept quiet. When he didn’t say anything after the second time, I told him to go out because I knew they are going to kill him even if he does not go out. Because they were after that, and then at that time I was thinking how is this boy going to live?
Because, they were together when Ahmad was tortured to death. At that time his own leg was battered. So, now, they have shot us, they shot me in the stomach, many shots, so I was thinking I was sure I was going to go. I didn’t know I’m going to live. And then, the Sheikh, he was covered in blood, so I was thinking this boy, he was just sixteen then, but when this first shooting happened to him, he was fourteen, I was thinking, how he is going to cope? He may blame us for not allowing him to not go out. Then I told him to go out may Allah help you.
The moment he went out they rained bullet on him and then they killed him. So, you see, these ones I can see them I can not help them, those ones I have said if I have been able, I would have helped them. but these ones they were before me, because I was shot I couldn’t get up. I couldn’t help them. and that is how they were killed, but Alhamdulillah, it is in the path of Allah, you know, that is the most [effective] thing that gives one peace. [And that] is that it is in path of Allah, and we all expecting it. May Allah help us. That is it.
Question: It is an unbelievable story and such an honor to be in your presence, any final words that you like to say to our audience?
Mrs. Zakzaky: Yes, what I want to say, I would like to repeat one thing specially to our brothers and sisters here in Iran, that they should value, you see all these things I’m saying, we are in trouble to get what they have already got. But, they have already got it because of the sacrifices of people like Imam Khomeini, and people like good students of Imam like Sayyid Khamenei, Ali Rajaei, Beheshti and all these great people, and those whom we don’t know their names, they scarified a lot, they suffered a lot, and you see all these things that we encountering now in our own place because we want to have what they have had, so they should not be ungrateful to Allah.
Because being ungrateful to Allah is if they do not protect the Revolution, because this is the only heaven for any good struggler now, this is the only heaven. This Islamic republic, and it did not come until people suffered, until a lot of shuhada were given, so they should not allow it to fail, they should not listen to the, I don’t know how to call it, to the lies, that there has been told by Western people, saying “look at there, and there, they [Westerners] are living in Jannah [paradise].”
They are living in a terrible situation, for you to live in a place where is Islam and the law of Islam is the one governing society. It’s a great thing because if you are here now, all you need to do is to repair [the relationship] between you and Allah, you know, with Ibadat [prayers], with good works, with helping people, and all that. But in our place now, you cannot say just I’m doing Ibadat, you have to struggle for Islam to be established. So, Allah has helped. If our grandfathers or our fathers had struggled for what has happened in Iran, now we would not be the ones suffering.
But now we are the ones suffering we are still suffering you know, so they should not, you know because Allah SWT says he would not change the condition of people until they change what is in their mind, and then He will not change the na’amat [blessings] He did for people until they change what is in their minds. So, if they change, if they show Allah [He will bless them]. Allah gave Imam success because Imam gave his heart to Allah, and then he had handful of students who gave their hearts to Allah. That is why Allah gave them victory, so they should not be ungrateful to Allah by rebelling against Allah.
What is rebelling against Allah? Refusing to keep to the laws of Islam, you know, and trying to introduce other things not Islam, and when it happens, they would say they haven’t done that. And another point is that Alhamdulillah, what happened here, one of the blessings that I’m always talking about is that after the demise of Imam [Khomeini], Allah gave somebody who is following the line of Imam, that is the Sayyid Imam Khamenei, so this is a great blessing. They should know this blessing that even during the [time of the Prophet], the Prophet (pbuh) didn’t get this. Because immediately [after] he left, they refused to follow his Wassiya [will], can you see? And then even Sheikh Usman Fodio — that I’m saying — that he immediately [after] he left the world, his brother who should have been the one to lead people, he was very educated, and they struggled together, [his name was] Sheikh Abdullah Gwandu, just what happened during the [time of the] Prophet happened to him too.
You know they even refused to allow him to attend the funeral of his own brother. Because they had planned to deviate from the past. But here, Allah has given a blessing that I don’t know that he has done it to a society before. That immediately [after] Imam went, after ten years after the Revolution Imam was left to guide the people, and then after ten years, Allah gave somebody like Imam, on the path of Imam for many years up to now, he is together with us. So, it’s a great blessing. They should value this blessing; they should not allow this blessing to escape. I hope Allah will continue to look on this Revolution with his mercy, and do not consider those who are ungrateful, and I hope those who are ungrateful come back to their senses so that until the advent of Imam Mahdi (as), because I don’t know how this world will be if the Revolution fails. It will be terrible. So, this is the final thing.
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